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    Gpia7r talk , 11 August UTC 4chan has flood control and in any case I have not posted a single one of them.

    It is paranoid to suggest that I've rounded up my friends to post extremely violent and sexual images on that board so as to prove an esoteric point on a Wikipedia forum.

    Your arguments are becoming flimsier and flimsier. It is unverifiable. You know this. If you really want to make that your goal, be sure to collect statistics for every other popular meme, where they are, and how many more of them there are than Pedobear.

    Either way, 4chan is not a reliable source of statistics, as you cannot possibly see every thread created or every post made, or refer back to it, or prove it's verifiability, or prove it is not Original Research, or provide more sources to it's validity, or provide a reason that Pedobear is notable enough to deserve insertion to the article with the biased undertone of CP.

    Gpia7r talk , 11 August UTC So you say I should go on 4chan and collect statistic on every possible meme which is impossible! And then you say that statistics about 4chan are invalid anyway.

    Semantics - See below on why you're out of line on this comment as well. No one denied Pedobear's existence. Stay on topic. By your current logic, there needs to be inclusion of every other meme that exists and is proven to exist outside of 4chan.

    And I don't mean they don't mention it as Pedobear's birthplace. They don't mention it at all. It is notable because it has appeared in a Pat Buchanan column with a picture of Obama.

    Again, one person's opinion. Journalists will reach for whatever they can to make a "story", and if I photoshop a picture of your president with Courage Dog, and it gets posted on the internet, that doesn't make it notable.

    Gpia7r talk , 11 August UTC It is notable because a former Republican presidential candidate and syndicated columnist, for no apparent reason, posted an image of Obama with pedobear in a column.

    This was mentioned in Wonkette, whose related blog, Gawker, is cited in this Wikipedia entry. Someone named King maintains that this is proof of nothing because the Wonkette links don't mention 4chan, but it is a common sense fact that 4chan is the main "romping ground" for the pedobear meme.

    In any case, since I'm a journalist myself, I will just have to write a national article on Pedobear's presence on 4chan.

    You're good at that. That line was referring directly to your comment: "You said: "Pedobear is posted in CP threads less than it's posted in any other thread, that's the point.

    I simply wanted you, personally, to go there and watch and see how wrong you are. So, when you're done bringing back your weeklong data, please prove that most Pedobear images were shown in CP threads.

    Sources, citations, verifiable information, etc. You can provide none of that. Gpia7r talk , 11 August UTC "I simply wanted you, personally, to go there and watch and see how wrong you are.

    So how exactly did I find out how wrong I am? We're not stopping you from attempting to legitimately add Pedobear to this article.

    We're stopping you from adding it in spite of wikipedia policy and the inclusion guidelines. The real absurdity is in people demanding sources from 4chan, then ruling out 4chan as a source.

    It is true. I certainly hope you aren't claiming I said that. Gpia7r talk , 11 August UTC Since the above quote was not signed as per the rules, and since it contains numerous caps locked sentences, which is your specialty, I did assume it was you.

    But I apologize if it wasn't. Here's the truth: Pedobear is a meme, one of thousands. It's mere existence does not prove to be notable enough for inclusion, nor is it "mainstreaming internet pedophelia".

    Unfortunately, 4chan is not a verifiable or reliable source to assertain any solid information on the cause, existence, or result of the Pedobear cartoon.

    The inclusion to the article is difficult because, while it's notability is suspect, doing so would set a precidence for including other memes that may carry even stronger "controversy".

    Can we at least agree on this? Is this the prelude to a ban? I will not agree with you about "precidence" [sic]. And the "mainstreaming Internet pedophilia" comment is moot because I never said such a thing in the Wikipedia article, where I merely stated that Pedobear is a popular meme on 4chan true: it's in the official banner ads, unlike any other meme and that it is posted in CP threads true: you yourself agree.

    Also, I will reiterate my question to you, starting with a quote from you. Stating that you mentioning the rule of signing comments is hypocritical.

    You said it in your comments above, and it is false. You tried to reinforce your claim about Pedobear with "4chan is extremely popular worldwide, but no one wants to touch the fact that it basically is mainstreaming internet pedophilia.

    I said numerous times that it is not exclusive to CP threads, nor is it the only thing posted. There may have been CP threads that didn't have a single Pedobear image!

    You don't know this, I don't know this, it's absolutely unverifiable. Courage dog is posted in CP threads, we need to include an article about that, too.

    Oh, and every single other image ever that has been in a CP thread. Pedobear is a meme, meme's are in 4chan and numerous other raunchy websites , so of course you're going to see them on 4chan.

    Want a medal or cookie or some sort of pat on the back? How does that make it worth including? Again, I ask, does that mean every other meme I see on 4chan should be included?

    It's all over that thread. Though you can dispute the credibility of the "Know Your Meme" itself, the information contained there is accurate.

    Pedobear is based on a Japanese bear called Kuma, a picture of which is available at the Know Your Meme link. No way to prove that at all.

    Could have been created at 2chan, ebaums, or some random guy in their basement. Isn't it enough to show that it is a widely disseminated meme on 4chan?

    Anyone who don't see this is blind. Also, it should be mentioned the vast amount of CP that is posted at midnight on B. And 4chan isn't legit either because But the continual and frequent posting of pedobear on 4chan, including in threads that I have documented, is not a common sense connection between 4chan and Pedobear.

    Makes sense, thanks. The fact that it's a meme is irrelevent, because it's only one meme out of thousands. As King says, your only go-to source isn't a valid source.

    Your intent to add this to the article is very strong - What's the reason? What are you trying to prove?

    If there was some actual informative and notable point to saying that Pedobear is a meme on 4chan and other websites , without mentioning the hundreds and thousands of other memes Gpia7r talk , 11 August UTC Pedobear is notable because it is a symbol of pedophilia and it is used in criminal child pornography threads on 4chan.

    No, the posting of Pedobear in such threads is not random, as I have demonstrated in the previously linked-to thread, where there were at least 18 pedobears mixed up with dismembered limbs, insect impregnation pornography, and cartoon child pornography.

    There were no other memes posted in that thread. After challenging me to go to 4chan in search of examples of pedobear's use, you dismissed this example and all but accused me of fabricating evidence after having accused me of never visiting 4chan, a claim you never retracted or apologized for.

    In other words, you wanted evidence from 4chan; I gave it to you; you dismissed 4chan as a source of evidence. Your reasoning is twisted, your argumentation circular.

    Pedobear is also notable because it has been reported on in Wonkette and other news blogs after an image of Pedobear inexplicably appeared next to Obama in a column by a former Republican presidential candidate and intellectual leader of the conservatives.

    Why are the other memes, like lolcats, mentioned if they are but one of thousands? I would like an explanation on that score.

    A single thread does not represent the past however many years of 4chan. I said there's no evidence to state that you couldn't have done that.

    That is one of the million reasons 4chan is not a reliable source. It's anonymous and random. Gpia7r talk , 11 August UTC "Why are the other memes, like lolcats, mentioned if they are but one of thousands?

    Once again, over before it started. Go back to ED. It's common sense and common knowledge. Unless you want to make the case that the majority of people on this planet frequent 4chan.

    We're not writing this article for us. Yep, sounds reliable and iron-clad. The misspellings in the article make it even more reliable.

    Gpia7r talk , 12 August UTC You can characterize it however you like, but in that link Pedobear is called a 4chan meme.

    There are no misspellings to my eye. Or are you objecting to the two Ls in Lolli and the use of an ellipsis and an "er"?

    None are incorrect, by the way. For the sake of other users, I will repost the entire text here. Give this to a child you… er, on second thought, keep this far away from children.

    Far away! They are to Pedobear what Winnie the Pooh is to honey, and try not to read into that analogy too deeply. Pedobear earns our 'seal of approval,' as long as he stays away from playgrounds and middle school science fairs.

    I'm going to craft a few sentences, though nothing substantive yet , about Pedobear and insert them into the article. I will lay out the sentences in here first, and post them tomorrow.

    Since this article includes citations of such notable scientific journals as "Gawker," I do believe this link is up to snuff as well.

    It holds just as much weight as your claims, which have all been baseless and without a solid, verifiable, or reliable source.

    Keep digging. This is going up. That advertisement is not a reliable or verifiable source. Please address this without rehashing what you've said 11 times now about how you personally feel and believe it is.

    You need a solid source, you've yet to provide one. It's rich of you to call my claims baseless when you don't actually disagree with any of them ie, pedobear is a 4chan meme.

    You have failed to follow the guidelines of Wikipedia in your claims, and you still insist on posting information that is not verifiable or reliable.

    Take caution in what you are doing, for it WILL be reverted, and you will likely throw a fit and bring up the 3RR again. It is a description of a stuffed animal, and the author is making baseless claims just as you are.

    Pedobear is an Internet Meme. They're all "Internet Memes" that are found circulating on numberless boards. You can keep calling the information unverifiable or unreliable, but that doesn't negate the source.

    That source you have mischaracterized as an advertisement it is NOT an advertisement ; incidentally, you have YET to ennumerate the alleged misspellings in it, which makes me laugh coldly.

    As for the opinions of editors - first, facts are not determined by majority rule, and second, you are the only one are you an editor?

    Others may follow, but this is how it stands now. I reiterate: a reference to Pedobear will be posted in here, then posted in the article tomorrow.

    You know what you can do with your exhortation to "take caution. It's a blog entry associated with comedy. The video is actually the showcase of the blog entry.

    Your snivelling about the sexualitzation of children is pure strawman. My intention is simply to state that Pedobear is a 4chan meme with source , and that it was recently strangely glued to an image of Obama and put in a column by former Republican presidential candidate Pat Buchanan.

    I'm going to figure out how to take this debate further up the Wikipedia chain. I'm tired of dealing with czars who like to rule imperiously over little boards.

    I'm a journalist who deals with editors on a weekly basis, and this is atrocious. I find it hard to believe, simply from what you've written so far.

    I think you're trying to add weight to a high-school journalism class to help you with your argument. That's all I want to know.

    Psst, spellchecking? That's two words, my friend. I've never seen so many post-comment changes made. So, I'm commenting on your personal "journalism" skills, and your obvious lack of review before submitting.

    Back on topic - What makes that article's claim that it is a 4chan meme a verifiable piece of information?

    Do you know the person that posted that blog entry, and if they somehow were involved in the upbringing of 4chan and over the "Meme Creation Department"?

    Gpia7r talk , 12 August UTC Your impugning of my journalism is extremely insignificant to me. On topic: I don't know the person who wrote that blog entry, and I'm almost certain they weren't involved in the creation of 4chan and its innumerable memes.

    All of this is highly irrelevant. As you acknowledged further up, I don't have to prove that pedobear originated on 4chan - only that it circulates as a meme on 4chan.

    So states the source - which I notice you're no longer calling an advertisement. Where are the misspellings in there, anyway?

    Do "spellcheck" it for me. You've yet to provide a source making that assertion. And by the way, blogs are not reliable sources.

    The fact that Pedobear is posted in child pornography threads has been affirmed by none other than my loudest opponent, Gpia. I am not here to prove that Pedobear is posted in CP threads, however, since you guys have already asserted that 4chan threads are invalid sources.

    Screenshots can be provided. So I am limiting myself to proving what is well-known anyway: that pedobear is a meme on 4chan. It is true that blog entries are often not considered reliable sources.

    But there is an exception for blogs if they are employers - in other words, if the writers for those blogs get paid, and if those writers are well-versed in their field.

    The blog entry I cited was published through comedy. You can say "Pedobear is posted in CP threads" all you want, and absolutely disregard why that is irrelevent It is an image, and thousands of images per day are posted in threads, be they CP or not.

    Stop forgetting about that. What I'm trying to prove is that Pedobear is a meme on 4chan. I will report that in the article based on a reliable source.

    You say the source isn't reliable because it's a blog entry? The blog is an employer with a professional staff and therefore it meets Wikipedia's reliability requirements.

    End of story. Be sure to read back up on the past 15 pages of this debate if you've forgotten why that is an invalid claim. I still dont think that we have got sourced information that can justify adding too much about the pedobear meme here, but i admit this video is a start.

    I dont think its enough yet, but if this video becomes a meme itself, say if its slashdotted, or if this conversation is slashdotted slashdot beware of us, we may try to get slashdotted just to justify the inclusion of a single sentence in the article.

    The little girl isn't offering to take off her clothes. And what nice suggestions she's getting: "paint a rainbow," "show asshole," "full frontal nude," "sharpie in pooper," "fist fuck," "cut neck," "shit in bed then eat it.

    The thread has been up for 27 minutes now. Gpia7r talk , 12 August UTC Here is what's verifable about that thread, which I have saved in its near entirety.

    There was a picture of a little girl, around 8 years old, inviting users to ask her to do something. Beneath the picture of the little girl were three postings of pedobear: one of a real-life pedobear getting a simulated blowjob from a boy while a class of kindergarteners looked on; one of pedobear scrunching up his face in frustration at the fact that the picture of the little girl may have been recycled from an earlier thread copy pasta ; and one of pedobear panting and drooling.

    Lolicon , one L, not two. Debate over, see below for the kind administrator's input.

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